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Author Topic: Is possible create matter or transmute it with psi?  (Read 1102 times)
Slaidas
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« on: March 19, 2011, 12:25:00 AM »

for ex. Split an oxygen atom and fuse protons, neutrons and electrons into hydrogen atoms.  Grin
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 01:30:33 AM »

Nope. ='(
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Maelstrom
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 02:53:00 AM »

I think it would require a huge amount of psi.. That's my theory..
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Shinichi
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 10:33:59 AM »

Using energy alone, no. But using kinesis, its possible with high improbability. Even so, kinesis on a microscopic scale at all is no small matter anyway, but even if you can there's little point to doing the things your suggesting. There are far more productive uses for kinesis on any scale, and certainly far easier things it can be used to do.



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« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 10:35:00 AM by Shinichi » Logged

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ClueLou
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2011, 05:41:35 PM »

you talking about messing with water and splitting them into oxygen and hydrogen ? and why would you want to do this? bet it would be far easier using something else then psi...

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Maelstrom
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 08:24:39 PM »

Oh! Silly me.. I was reading the Eragon Book Series and that statement kinda stuck in my mind.. Anyways, increasing the chances of probability that the said atom to split and fuse again with another atom would be possible... Though it would be very difficult because the chances for it to occur without techology is kinda near to impossible...
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Shinichi
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2011, 06:50:10 AM »

Oh! Silly me.. I was reading the Eragon Book Series and that statement kinda stuck in my mind.

There are some things in the Eragon novels, and many other modes of fiction, that can be adjusted to be usable in real world metaphysics. Afterall, most authors tend to draw they're inspiration from either the real world occult or other authors who already did so, so sometimes its just a matter of reverse engineering something that was slightly modified to suite the fictional story.

But in this case, I've personally found that while quantity is necessary to an extent, someone who has a refined energy system, a concentrated mind and a potent will power can do more with the amount of psi or life force in his little finger then someone who has trouble moving energy, a monky mind or a weaker will can do with all the psi in theyre personal sphere of control.

There's probably more to it, but so far I've found nothing to say that psi or energy alone is the only factor in these things. Wink



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« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 06:54:58 AM by Shinichi » Logged

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The Adfeng
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2011, 08:18:33 AM »

Is is most likely probable, but highly, highly unlikely.  Even if you knew what you were doing.
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Shinichi
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 08:47:02 AM »

I just remembered that a magician I know to be very experienced and honest (his humility is such that i have never known him to exagerate anything, especially when it has something to do with him) had an experience with a quarter materializing out of thin air, which may fall under the "create matter" part of the question.

You can read about it here, along with all the other experiences he had during his spiritual retreat: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=16035.0



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Mech
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2011, 10:11:22 AM »

I would classify that as aportation.
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Shinichi
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2011, 10:49:18 AM »

Aportation. You mean dematerializing an object in one physical location, moving it to another physical location as an etheric energy that is not bound by the physical law of space, and then rematerializing it exactly as it was in that other location?

That is an amazing experience in and of its self, I would think.

Regardless, it should be noted that Materialization as a psychic or magical faculty has been observed for thousands of years. From the ancient vedas of India, to the sacred gospels of Christianity, to even more recent texts like Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda and even the ocasional scientific study of the phenomenon. It is not something quite as simple as moving a psi wheel, but I for one would not rule it as impossible.



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lightoflife
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 01:28:42 PM »

Actually if you look at it from a scientific view, yes.
To tansmute matter theretically it would take a relatively small amount of energy since all you're doing is breaking the molecular bonds between the atoms. depending on the strength of the bonds it shouldn't be too hard. you fuse carbon and oxygen everyday just through respiration.
Spontaneously creating matter however is still possible but it takes a phenominal amount of energy. to work out exactly how much you would have to use e=mc2. This is how the material universe was made, the big bang was purely energy and a lot of that energy became matter. So yes it's possible but you would need more energy than the sun.
Long story short, yes you can transmute and create matter and i'm sorry if i got to technical and bored you.  Grin
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flamedancer
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 10:43:50 AM »

Actually if you look at it from a scientific view, yes.
To tansmute matter theretically it would take a relatively small amount of energy since all you're doing is breaking the molecular bonds between the atoms. depending on the strength of the bonds it shouldn't be too hard. you fuse carbon and oxygen everyday just through respiration.
Spontaneously creating matter however is still possible but it takes a phenominal amount of energy. to work out exactly how much you would have to use e=mc2. This is how the material universe was made, the big bang was purely energy and a lot of that energy became matter. So yes it's possible but you would need more energy than the sun.
Long story short, yes you can transmute and create matter and i'm sorry if i got to technical and bored you.  Grin

It would take a high degree of coordination and coherence and not a high amount of energy since when a person uses psychokinesis, they are not generating any energy at all. The history of the state involved is manipulated via coordination of initial states, so energy states leading up to where energy could have gone to create that state is shifted around leading to that particular action. The motion of the particles involved in the said state can be modeled by stochastic differential equations, such as Brownian Motion, in which the collective shift in the macrophysical system can happen as a result of a high coherent organization among the individual collisions of the smaller particles involved. In a heated gas, for example, each heated particle has kinetic energy in a random direction which will randomly bounce off of others not particularly creating any type of pattern as it expands outward. Now, if a person is able to say force the gas to stay in a spherical shape or form it into any other coherent form, they are creating a particular order in the random direction of the kinetic energy involved in how the collisions happen among the particles within which happens as a result of coordination of the trajectory of energy involved which ties into future extrapolations and initial states. This is what happens when a person creates a force bubble or a force ball. They are manipulating the trajectory of kinetic energy in a coherent fashion due to the organization of a particular trajectory.      

Using energy alone, no. But using kinesis, its possible with high improbability. Even so, kinesis on a microscopic scale at all is no small matter anyway, but even if you can there's little point to doing the things your suggesting. There are far more productive uses for kinesis on any scale, and certainly far easier things it can be used to do.

The position and momentum of an electron is more a finite approximation over an exact visible boundary due to the uncertainty involved versus larger physical objects which are more deterministic, thus, it would actually be easier to manipulate the trajectory of an electron to shift around molecules, to bond molecules together, break molecular bonds, and set off chemical reactions.

As far as experimental evidence goes, you have more successful experiments dealing with the the manipulation of electrons, photons, and self-assembling molecules than with such things as moving a chair across the room.        

All that being said, it would be possible to materialize, teleport, or phase an object via projection of a strongly organized and coherent template of information by manipulating the initial states of that history creating a future extrapolation which contains that particular change. The paths something can take to get to a place are infinite without the influence of entropy or decoherence, so selection of a particular trajectory in such a way that it is the only one that could happen can help. The issue with transmuting things has to do with with over coming the strong and weak forces involved, so you have the nuclear physics to contend with.  

To clarify, how this happens clashes with the quantum arrow of time, the classical arrow of time, decoherence, and entanglement.

In my experience, it is unlikely that people are able to create this type of coherent organization on their own, so teleportation, phasing, and materialization usually require more than one person.

There is also the issue of whether or not how an intention is represented is veridical(a genuinely real thing instead of just a perceived thing). An intention is an extension of intentionality in which intentionality is how we think about or of an object in which our mind points to the represented thing, but this representation can be about something that need not exist, thus, a person can have a a non veridical intention in which the intention is not the accurate representation of the intended state. This can be somewhat solved by tacking on explicit linguistic representations, such as ideograms, to tested representations of this intended thing with appropriate feedback.

I am currently tinkering with a liquid crystal that I made out of an ester of cholesteryl benzoate. When I interact with it in its chiral phase, its pitch changes thereby making its color change. It is a fun way to do psychokinesis on helix molecules. It is fun having a crystal that you use in your practices that actually responds to you and way more interesting than a psi wheel. Instructions on how to make a cholesteric liquid crystal with a break down of information on it can be found here:

Preparation of Cholesteryl Ester Liquid Crystals

for ex. Split an oxygen atom and fuse protons, neutrons and electrons into hydrogen atoms.  Grin

It is possible to shift electrons about in their orbitals within an electron cloud to play around with molecular configurations, but nuclear transmutations would require over coming the strong force which has not been seen in experimental evidence dealing with psychokinesis.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 11:27:58 AM by flamedancer » Logged


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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 12:50:43 PM »

Quote
It is possible to shift electrons about in their orbitals within an electron cloud to play around with molecular configurations, but nuclear transmutations would require over coming the strong force which has not been seen in experimental evidence dealing with psychokinesis.

As far as purported evidence, we've already overcome one of the fundamental forces through levitation. Of course this is the weakest force. When I say weakest, I mean by a lot, a small magnet can prevent a quarter from falling to our large (comparative to the magnet) planet. Wikipedia article states that the strong force at the atomic level is 137 times stronger than the electromagnetic. If someone could overcome the force of a strong magnet attracting an object, they should be on their way to being able to overcome strong force.

Some experiments with capacitors and inductors could also be beneficial. Due to the extremely precise reactions of such devices, and the ease of measuring changes across them, psychokinetic changes in the time constant will easily be seen, and even small changes are evidence.
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flamedancer
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 01:29:08 PM »

Quote
It is possible to shift electrons about in their orbitals within an electron cloud to play around with molecular configurations, but nuclear transmutations would require over coming the strong force which has not been seen in experimental evidence dealing with psychokinesis.

As far as purported evidence, we've already overcome one of the fundamental forces through levitation. Of course this is the weakest force. When I say weakest, I mean by a lot, a small magnet can prevent a quarter from falling to our large (comparative to the magnet) planet. Wikipedia article states that the strong force at the atomic level is 137 times stronger than the electromagnetic. If someone could overcome the force of a strong magnet attracting an object, they should be on their way to being able to overcome strong force.

Some experiments with capacitors and inductors could also be beneficial. Due to the extremely precise reactions of such devices, and the ease of measuring changes across them, psychokinetic changes in the time constant will easily be seen, and even small changes are evidence.

That is an interesting hypothesis, but I was referring to experimental evidence dealing with things already proven. Psychokinesis can impact rates of radioactive decay, which is supported by a plethora of experiments; however, this does not account for the strong interactions gluing protons and neutrons together, so while it is hypothetically possible, there are no empirically documented cases of psychokinetic fission. In other words, manipulation of the rate and direction of radioactive decay has been empirically observed, but scattering the nucleus of an atom has not been. Observation of a particular order in how radiation is skewed via psi is already done. Also, you would not be looking for small changes, since you would have random changes of varying sizes across the board. You are looking for a consistent pattern which correlates with the intention of the person, so, no, small changes could not be taken as evidence.

Furthermore, the equipment that you are discussing would work based upon electric and electromagnetic fields. The oscillation of the electric current relative to a magnetic field creates an electromagnetic field which is mediated via photons(which is radiation). That being the case, the skewing of the electromagnetic radiation would excite an electron making it move across its orbital creating a spike in the equipment along with a perturbation in the emanating field without involving anything that has to do with the nuclear physics of an atom, so I have no clue how this is relevant to the topic since it is more electrical engineering than nuclear physics.    

Also, psychokinetic forms of levitation do not defy gravity. As I said earlier, the trajectory of the kinetic energy required is manipulated via the manipulation of its trajectory in such a way that there is a significant enough amount of kinetic energy to lift the object in the air.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 01:37:26 PM by flamedancer » Logged


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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2011, 01:38:42 PM »

I mean small changes across an inductor or capacitor. For example the discharge or charge rate in a capacitor. The exponential response is dependant on the circuit. The time constant or tau, is so precisely accurate that any aberrations are major evidence. The only way to change this is to actively affect the electromagnetic force. Like speeding up or prolonging the collapse of the electromagnet field around the component.

I'm just saying it's a stepping stone if someone wanted to try and take on Strong Force.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 01:45:45 PM by Mech » Logged
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