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[Birth]

I've been putting a lot of thought in this over the weeks and I've came with a theory. Feel free to put your opinions of this down, all are welcome.

"Physical Immortality to all living organisms on Earth is an unattainable endowment for the fact that this unique characteristic defies the very law of the earth which is Death. " -Birth

My reasoning for proposing this idea is basically physical immortality means you will have life forever. This Earth is designed for things to die, which is why we have Fungus to take care of the matter when the physical organism has passed. This goes for everything from larvae to Redwood trees, no matter the scale things will die and organisms on the Earth are here to make sure they turn into nutrients, or whatever the end result may be. Immortality defies lifes most basic cycle which is Birth, Sleep and Death. Birth is creation, Sleep is (not necessarily sleep) living/progress, and Death is passing. I don't know how celestial organisms work, but the laws of the Earth are Birth, Sleep, and Death and can be applied to everything; even something such as business.

I read something on a occult website saying while something in this Universe may be immortal, it will pass once the Universe has basically died. This goes in the laws of time as Immortality does not equate and Eternity, which exists outside time and has no beginning or end. The Earth exists inside time. The Earth will eventually have an end, and people know this. Which is why nothing on this Earth can be physically Immortal, and even if there was something physically immortal on this Earth, it would not be native to Earth or it's inhabitants.

Edit: Furthermore, if immortality was possible there would be no need for reproduction, so those organs we have now wouldn't exist in a world with natural immortality.

This is my proposal. What do you think about it?

I'm not sure about spiritual immortality, I really have no clue how the spirit functions, so lets not go into that.

[ClueLou]

Rather had agelessness instead of physical immortality...

Remember my dad told me a story that some man wished for immortality and got it... but forgot to wish to stop aging...

Hence he was getting older but he couldn't die....

[Birth]

Did you read what I wrote? Or did you just assume this was a topic on who prefers what?

[MariusAnil]

Life is energy with purpose. I think life it-self is collective immortality. everything feeds back in to itself eventually. Though I think individual immortality Isn't improbable its just impossible based upon our current paradigms. For example only the present exists the past and the future doesn't exist. This might have something to do with attaining immortality or it might make it impossible but based on our current paradigms which in turn are based more in the physical side of things which in turn makes immortality impossible.

[Birth]

That's a really good point. So, based on what you first said, do you think life needs death to stay immortal? Meaning, in immortality there is no permanent death...?

[Wren_Noctis]

I agree with you fully, Birth. Physical immortality has to be impossible in a natural way. Nature has to decay, then be reborn again. It's life. It is impossible to be physically immortal because we are alive. We have to grow.

I think that if we were immortal, we would have mutilated our body's functions to the point where we couldn't be human or alive anymore. It's unnatural.

That being said, I'm also a believer in my own idea of reincarnation. I might be biased, but physical immortality is definitely not worth screwing myself up for.

[Birth]

..I think that if we were immortal, we would have mutilated our body's functions to the point where we couldn't be human or alive anymore. It's unnatural.

That being said, I'm also a believer in my own idea of reincarnation. I might be biased, but physical immortality is definitely not worth screwing myself up for.

Yes, we wouldn't even have a need for the organs needed for survival. Hahah, probably wont even have teeth or hair, now that I think about it xD

Oh yes, I was just thinking, some people may think reincarnation is similar to immortality, but people think of reincarnation after death. Which would make sense in the natural cycle

[ClueLou]

Did you read what I wrote? Or did you just assume this was a topic on who prefers what?

read it, just mention something about it.

Really heard it takes alot of energy to do something like this...

Then again, what do I know...

[Birth]

I apologize if I made you feel unappreciated, ClueLou.

You do think Immortality is possible? How would it be?

[MariusAnil]

You guys know about vampires(fictional) right? they're immortal but in order to attain that they had to lose their humanity. but we usually view them as something lower then humanity. I think to attain immortality it would either becoming less of what being human is or we would have to become more than human like a demi-god or something of that nature.
the im prefix in immortality means "not of" or "opposite of" so we would achieve something the opposite of life. birth the answer is yes life needs death in order to maintain its collective immortality.

[Birth]

Collective immortality is the same as reincarnation, in your definition. At least that's how I'm seeing it.

Okay, lets try to not go along to lines of supernatural theories, since we ourselves aren't supernatural...Sorry if I'm biased, but I do believe in Reincarnation. I don't, however, believe in an answer stating "It's possible because a deity can do it." No. I'm not accepting that, prove it. I proved why I think physical immortality is impossible to native inhabitants of Earth. Maruis, why don't you agree?

[MariusAnil]

I do agree birth I was just offering a different angle on it. from our physical perspective it is absolutely impossible. I just don't like to rule out certain subjects because they're impossible based on my current paradigm. for example I thought psychokinesis was impossible until one of my friends showed me otherwise; I've also experimented with machines that totally break the laws of thermodynamics which I thought was impossible. I decided instead of completely ruling something as impossible to rule it as improbable because until I know everything about the universe I will not know whats impossible or possible and I think ruling something as completely impossible might close my mind off to something extraordinary(like immortality). My angle is keep an open mind. the said subject might be impossible now based on our current views but that might change. At one point in time everyone thought the world was flat.

[ClueLou]

....You do think Immortality is possible? How would it be?

again just going by what I've heard during my travels..

From what I've heard... it would take a lot of energy (in fact become pure energy) in order to do it..
to finding a genie to grant you immortality (or agelessness)..

Personally, don't know much about it... but learning much about it here in this thread..

[Shinichi]

Over at Veritas there was a discussion about "the most powerful spell," and Physical Immortality was brought up. This is what Veos said about it:

I agree with Prophecy.  Simplest act of magic is telepathy, as it is the first skill to develop along basic training lines.  The hardest would be physical immortality.

This is an interesting thought...my thought after reading was, why? Why would someone want to eternally be in this dense material plane of existence for all eternity. Does not the concept of physical immortality go against universal law? please correct me if I am wrong. Maybe that is why it is so hard to achieve. I am aware that there are immortals...wonder what the motivation is to put such effort into this...did they achieve such a balance and state of bliss they decided not to transition? or is there a mission of some kind that they are on? Maybe it is both....my hope is to choose when and how I leave as in during meditation...guess that is Mahasamadhi.

Anybody have any views on this?

    Physical immortality is not what most people think it is.  The physical body becomes immortal once the flesh has been spiritualized to the point of being condensed prana, and thus the body appears in what ever manner the magician or yogi decides after that.  An immortal body isn't physical in the usual sense of the word.  They only make it appear as if its physical to other people's senses.  They have complete control of their body on a molecular level, and this in Yoga is called the Rainbow Body of Light, which in part is developed by the regular ingestion of pieces from the Philosopher's Stone.  This ingestion, along with certain alchemical tinctures ingested regularly, has to be combined with a certain line of spiritual Sadhana (given in step 9 of IIH) or higher levels of Kriya Yoga.

    Like I usually tell my students, there are two parts to attaining physical immortality: 1) prolonging life, and 2)the act of achievement itself.  Most people would have to live for about 150 years and do constant practice before physical immortality was possible.  Of course, very few ever attain this age and even fewer attain the goal.  Such a person would of course not be bound to physical existence, but could dissolve and create his physical body according to his will.

By "prana," he means the physical body is converted entirely into pure Energy, which can then be Dematerialized in order to walk among the spiritual worlds or Materialized in order to walk among the physical worlds, entirely at the will of the Immortal himself. Though there are a few of different ways of attaining this "body of light," Physical Immortality always comes down to this. At least, in my personal experience with the Daoist, Yogic and Hermetic traditions of the subject, prolonged physical life is called Longevity and is fairly easy to attain while in all references to actual physical immortality that I have seen, the body of light is always mentioned. And to those interested, by Philosophers Stone he does mean the physical stone of legend, not a metaphorical thing like many assume the Philosophers Stone to be.

I don't know how useful this is to all of you, but I thought some of you may be interested in the ancient version of physical immortality before you go mutilating yourself into no longer being human.  

On a side not, Birth, there is a much older version of your take on universal law as well. While Birth, Life and Death certainly is a cycle which can be easily observed; Life, Death and Rebirth is a cycle that has much more practical value, and which is manifested in the magical formula IAO: Isis as Nature or Life, ruined by Apophis the Death-Bringer or Destroyer, and restored to a higher quality of Life by The Redeemer, Osiris. Here is a chapter from Magick in Theory and Practice, by Crowley, which covers the subject more thoroughly: http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/chap5.html



~:Shin:~

[Birth]

To Marius: In order to get good responses it serves good to appear biased and dogmatic. Those characteristics provoke the best responses a lot of the time. :]

To Shinichi: So it would appear as if the Immortality they're referring to is spiritual, no? Think of immortality in a scientific sense, because that's what I'm tagging after. I see where you're getting at, but the minute we start talking about spiritual immortality affecting our physical bodies, people will begin to talk about deities, and it will totally derail my thread.

Also: Life, Death, and Rebirth is something else I like. I just prefer Birth, Sleep, and Death better because it mentions the state of living.

[MariusAnil]

scientifically speaking the only way we could attain physical immortality is if we become half-man half-machine or all machine.

[Shinichi]

To Shinichi: So it would appear as if the Immortality they're referring to is spiritual, no? Think of immortality in a scientific sense, because that's what I'm tagging after. I see where you're getting at, but the minute we start talking about spiritual immortality affecting our physical bodies, people will begin to talk about deities, and it will totally derail my thread.

What you are looking for is not a scientific method of immortality, it's a materialistic method of immortality. The indefinite preservation of the physical body as material, physical mass. Such is possible, and there are plenty of records (such as the Daoist Li Ching-Yun) that show people living far beyond what was and is the normal lifespan due to the practice of specific revitalizing exercises in Qi Gong, Yoga and similar systems. But such people have not escaped death, they are only prolonging it's coming. It must also be said that this form of Immortality the individual is not Invincible. Someone who is living a very long life can be killed, just as any other mortal man.

The Body of Light may belong to the spiritual traditions, and is considered by those traditions another step towards the evolution of the soul, but it alone is not an entirely spiritual thing. It is not the immortalization of the mental body so that the individual never forgets anything no matter how many time he reincarnates, or the astral body so that it doesn't have to be retrained and any psychic faculties will stay with the individual no matter how many times he reincarnates, nor even the soul which has been said to be immortal to begin with. The Body of Light is the immortalization of the physical body by transforming the physical mass entirely into energy, so that it truly and entirely is beyond death.

This is certainly not a materialistic thing, and science as most know it certainly is materialistic. But it is a very scientific process, and it has even been used in various forms of science fiction; my personal favorite being Stargate SG1. 

Still, indefinite life in one physical body, on one tiny planet, for even hundreds (much less thousands) of years would be a maddening experience. Most people would hop at the chance to attain such immortality, but it's really not so great.

Also: Life, Death, and Rebirth is something else I like. I just prefer Birth, Sleep, and Death better because it mentions the state of living.

And "Life, Death and Rebirth" doesn't? It is also arguable, though, that not everyone experiences the state of living as Sleep. There are those who are very much awake to the experience. 

scientifically speaking the only way we could attain physical immortality is if we become half-man half-machine or all machine

If I remember correctly, according to the rate of cell reproduction the average human gets a brand new body every 7 years or so. The reason we age, then, is because of the fact that the reproduced cells are of a lesser quality then the originals. Because of sun damage or toxins or all kinds of reasons, but they are inferior.

To materialistically sustain the physical body indefinitely, then, it's a simple matter of taking advantage of this process, and making sure that each generation of cells are of the same or of a higher quality then the previous. Many have done this in Qi Gong, Yoga, and other arts by performing exercises that strengthen and purify the energy system which in turn strengthens and purifies the physical body, so that the body can sustain life and health if not youth as well.

But again, this is only Longevity. Not true Immortality. Though in theory Longevity can be sustained indefinitely, eventually the individual will simply get tired of life and leave.



~:Shin:~

[Birth]

Shinichi, the Body of Light is not within our current scientific category. If scientists believed in this, we wouldn't need as much physical medicine as we already have out on the counters, if we could use our Body of Light to heal most sicknesses. In my personal opinion, I think science and spiritualism are closely related, but we aren't discussing spiritualism. I'm talking about science. I do not seek a materialistic method of immortality, and I do not seek immortality itself. I disprove physical immortality by theorem, I don't desire the attribute itself. Please do not twist my motives.

On a side note, I'm also confused on how you earlier said I'm not looking for a scientific method but a materialistic method, explain it to me, then say it's not materialistic but a scientific method.

"And 'Life, Death and Rebirth' doesn't? It is also arguable, though, that not everyone experiences the state of living as Sleep. There are those who are very much awake to the experience."
The way I interpret Life, Death, and Rebirth is just mentioning you are alive just for a brief moment. Sleep does not literally mean sleep as in 'oh i just went to sleep', but as a state of prolonged living. You're just confused on how I worded it.

Oh yeah, please read my proposal again. You don't seem to get the point of it.

[Shinichi]

Eh, I just worded my point wrong.

The Body of Light isnt something that we have already, like an astral or etheric body. It is what the physical body is transformed into. It is called the Body of Light simply because it is the physical body as Energy and not Mass.

And my reference to materialism was also misworded. I was trying to point out that you are attempting to disprove something that our current level of science cannot comprehend and properly study, thus any and all hypothosis are just that--hypothosis that are up in the air until science has the instruments and resources to properly study the subject. To put it bluntly, it's like trying to disprove the world being round with a level of science based entirely on the world being flat. The average man will look around and see that he is standing on flat earth, whereas the scientist will look around him and see that the world is curved. Neither can be proven objectively until science evolves enough to objectively study the subject, which in this case yielded that the earth was in fact round, contrary to what the average man observed.

The Body of Light may seem spiritual, but it is an entirely physical attainment. As is Longevity as I defined it in my above posts. It's a simple matter of the fact that there is a whole lot more to Physics then what is currently being researched.

Sorry. When I get excited my mind moves faster then my mouth (or hands), and everything comes out all jumbled up. lol I do have a point. Sometimes you just have to read slowly to understand my ramblings.



~:Shin:~

[MariusAnil]

conservation of mass. did you know that if you weighed everything that comes into the human body then weighed everything that comes out of the body it would weigh the same. If so then how do we grow? conservation of energy. energy can neither created nor destroyed the amount remains constant and can only be converted into different types of energy. the atom is made up of sub-atomic particles that have different energetic properties (- electron, + proton, and neutron)and we label them as such. if all matter is energy then that means we are energy. if everything that goes in weighs the same as everything that come out then the last logical answer to how we grow is that we're converting energy(life is energy with purpose). I believe as we age our speed and efficiency in processing energy peaks and then wanes. the theory is what we found a way to get back to that peak efficiency(early childhood) and then keep it there without burning out? Birth the theories of conservation of mass and energy are the only scientific way(in my opinion) of really viewing immortality or psionics in general. both of these theroies in my mind prove the existence of psionic phenomenon. in turn you could view immortality as extremely high level psionic development. seeing as how all of this came rushing through my mind right now and has fundamentally changed my paradigm I now see immortality(in any sense because physical comes after non-physical) as attainable.

p.s did you start this post to confirm your own belief or to compare the beliefs of others in accordance with your own?

to me what i just wrote was a major advance in my personal thought patterns and paradigms so writing this helped me just as much as anybody else. please no overt bashing you can shoot holes in as much as you want just don't call me an idiot because that makes me angry and it may not effect you personally but it effects the people in contact with me.