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[issacweirdo]

Ok, so it's not the video itself you should watch out for. Hell, it's actually NOT verbal. The video itself is interesting and I would recommend it to anyone who is serious about learning psionics; you will be ridiculed by the majority of people, but in order to take the pain you have to understand WHY they do so in the first place. I personally agree with the guy in the video, but that is up to the individual. Back to the purpose. I actually want to make note of the COMMENTS, especially the person named Tara who is trying to hold their own ground against multiple theories and ideas. I'm not saying Tara is the victim, nor are the other guys being preached by an idiot. I personally think Tara is misinterpreting information given to her/him. BUT that's not the main point; here's a real look on what goes down outside of SP forums. If you have been like me, at least in the past since I'm no longer a psion, being one SUCKS. A LOT. You don't really get benefits, you waste time on something that might not be true, the majority of society frowns upon you, but most importantly practice in itself takes A LOT OF TIME. If it makes you happy then go for it, but most people these days take psionics as if it's just a game. Not saying Tara is a psion, but I would say the other members are giving Tara a hard time; the experience is similar if other people who did not believe in psi give psions a hard time. I'm not trying to scare any potential members, but life is tuff'. To be an actual psion isn't to just "make the baddest psi ball you can", but it's knowing how to keep your head high even if you are proclaimed as the towns lunatic. Other than that I also feel most new people interested in psionics might have the same position as Tara. Science seems to be the best bet in order to measure psi, assuming it's real, so naturally psions must also look towards science as its safe-haven. I would comment further, but I would like to hear some ideas or first-impressions. Of course, only of the video/comments itself! If you want to talk about the ideas I'm sprouting then let's take it up in the "Debater's Arena" (DUN DUN DUN!).  
EDIT
Hah! After posting I just realized I haven't set up the link...
http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception.html

[Notagh]

but most importantly practice in itself takes A LOT OF TIME. If it makes you happy then go for it, but most people these days take psionics as if it's just a game.

I would like to mention that the various psionic endeavors are comparable and arguably a branch of warriorship, with definition here of "one who seeks power in the unknown."  These lead to internal power, for some self-fulfillment, and overall is a great mental pardigram to have.  In this branch is included perpetually increasing one's power, stopping power leaks that leak out of bad habits, negative emotions, living in the past, situations in which one guards one's ego as they confuse it for the true self, etc.  One could argue (Truly I think.) that such is an equally fine path for becoming a professional athlete or a mathematician or physicist.  There are certain books on the subject if one wishes to read further.

[issacweirdo]

I was more thinking around the lines of fluff, like "Let's move objects so I can look cool", or "let me gather more psi so I can unleash more powerful attacks" (last one not really, but meh). See, the stuff you are mentioning requires effort and dedication. Most psions, at least from when I used to be a psion, would "practice" while using the computer at the same time! Not only that, but some people like to play games and get good at it so they can FEEL good about themselves. I feel this is what the majority of psions feel also; they want to exceed in something and feel special. Well, what better way to gain an upper-hand over the majority of population by having some "secret knowledge" that can grant you powers beyond anyones dreams. I just feel most psions these days lack a purpose for their training OTHER than to feel smug about themselves in comparison to others. As you might agree, psionics is like a muscle; you need to work it daily if you want to get better in something. You can't expect to create something like a world flare with JUST "will power". Time and effort is required, both factors that are most commonly overlooked.

I'm not disagreeing with you; desire for more power is actually GOOD for us people, since it also motivates us to reach higher heights than we thought possible. Now the only step left is to manifest that desire into reality through physical action.

Maybe the noun "game" didn't get the message across clearly. I suppose something better would be "something that everyone is available to and can give anyone kick-a$$ powers through will only. Proof? Let's go with the 'Scientific' theory, Law of Attraction! Now, if I REALLY want to fly and erase societys programming, then I can defy gravity. Well, here goes!".

Well, I won't comment any further about the law of attraction thing since my thoughts might insult others...Point being, even if the above is actually true, the mentioned above in itself requires HUGE tons of work. I mean, seriously; you are trying to eliminate ones self-dependence on those memories to sustain their ego identity. The task is next to impossible; I have never seen someone personally that has been able to pull this off, though I have heard stories. This type of thing requires years of meditation and therapy to get over. This is ONLY to get away the programming from society too; the exact process of defying gravity is not well-explained either. It should also require bunch of psi, so gathering a lot shouldn't be too easy.
EDIT
Yes, I know I might have come out as a douche with the game thing. These are my actual thoughts though, so tough luck.

[Notagh]

"truth" in this case, is a misnomer.  When you rule anything as a "truth", instead of merely fitting into your map (beliefs) of what reality is (which is unknowable because of our sensory limitations and our limiting beliefs) you are merely limiting your own power and spending more power on maintaining and protecting your belief of what is the true reality against changes, when in the end what you believe to be true is likely to be bs anyway.

The problems you mention is caused by the ego and the defense of the ego.  It has been argued that the ego would not be created without social programming, which is psychologically damaging.  These desires are a waste of power, as you spend large amounts of personal power defending your ego from others, yourself, etc.
A wish for power is fine.  A wish for power to bolster your own ego with the belief that your ego and personality is who you truly are when it is not, is not fine, and does not fit into the warrior psion lifestyle I will be attempting to spread in my PSG chats.

As for your various assumptions about the "average" psion (Average, indeed?), well let's just say you have nowhere near enough data to make such assumptions.
Your various assumptions otherwise are also just as baseless.  

The ONLY way to get away the programming from society

, for example, is a rather unfortunate assumption on your part.  You know you're asking for trouble when you state there is a "ONLY" (In capitals!) way to do something when you're involving psychology and the various types of human minds.  (I take this back if you could show me a copy of your Ph.D in psychology.)  Not the very least of the holes here being that there are certain primitive societies still operating that are described by various researchers to have no social programming, at all!

"Yes, I know I might have come out as a douche with the game thing. These are my actual thoughts though, so tough luck."
I don't agree with your thoughts.  Tough luck, eh?

EDIT:  Why, you may ask, are your assumptions on the "Average" psion baseless?  1) Not all psions are in the OEC.  2) You don't know everyone in the OEC.
Also, from what I know of the various OEC members, there are several, perhaps even a majority, that do not conform to any of the assumptions you have made of them.  I deem these assumptions insulting.  You ascribe to their self-development a much darker motive then the majority seems guilty of.  Of course, I have no solid data, I have run no surveys.  I would, however, like to see your research and data on this topic, of course.

[issacweirdo]

I would say I DO have enough data, since I have had in total about five years of experience dealing with people who believe in psi, indirectly or not. I have hardly met anyone who speaks of this "Warrior lifestyle", save for a few individuals. To mention my claims are then baseless is absurd.

The thing as "ONLY" was in terms with trying to defy gravity. Society says man cannot do so without the aid of machines or of external matter. As a psion, if you retain this skepticism then a sub-c block is created. This is in part from societys influence, hardly from the individual. Another way to get away from the programming of society would be to erase the memories through machinery, which I have NOT heard of. The best way to get away from it is to either suppress it or to let the memory fade away. Can you offer me another way to get away from societys programming AFTER being programmed? That is to say, to completely forget or to learn how to not include in ones thought processes the material they have learned. We, as in the majority of the population of human beings AT LEAST, have a complex society. It's ludicrous to state that we do not program/teach others how to properly behave in front of other beings, or how to think. Even now science is practically installed in every academic education system I can think of. Science states it is impossible for man to defy gravity through "will power" alone. This much I DON'T need a Ph. D, since there has been no sufficient evidence to conclude such "will power" can affect material external of us.

I don't care if you can't properly understand my argument and think about it on your own; I came here for personal research. Otherwise I like to post links to articles as a hobby. I am arguing the majority of psions I have met don't honestly care about psionics, in the sense they separate it from their own experience of physical reality. Obviously this is from my own personal experience; what else can it be from? There has never been a statistical study about psions, at least from what I'm aware of, that actually shows if the individuals care about what they do.

I am aware not all psions are in the OEC. But I doubt you know more than twenty in personal life that don't even register on OECs; talking to them on the internet do not count. You and me ONLY know the majority of psions from the internet. Even if the majority of psions you have met are not from the internet, it doesn't really matter; there are multiple people on this forum that claim they don't know anybody, or too little people, who practice psionics in their area. So the data I only practically have to work with is data from the internet. I don't care if there are people who practice psionics that aren't in OECs; I don't know them. Nor could I even know them, since I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to tell me in the first place. So you are just arguing with "data", that is to say psions who are not telling others they are psions, which in itself is pointless. Of course I can't know every member from the OEC either; too much to keep track of, at least from my part.

Of course, my initial argument is from personal experience, obviously. You have your own personal experience that seems to "contradict" what I am saying, which is also obvious. Therefore it is obvious as well that our personal "data" is biased; that is to say, is subjective and is not measured with unbiased instruments. You are then not refuting my argument, but simply offering another possibility, two things which are quite different. Offering just personal "data" is then not enough, but a report conducted with proper instruments, while having peers to review the report, to show that you are right and I am wrong. Since this report does not exist then there can be no further "argument", if that's what you want to call it but I would say babbling, but only a possibility of a future flame war. Since that is against the rules we will no longer "argue". If you want to carry on this discussion and actually prove me wrong, then feel free to send me a PM.

Even though I have not directly answered your last sentences, I think what was written above indirectly answers if I have data, in the sense the most unbiased it can get, clearly: no. Like you stated, neither do you.

Remember, this was supposed to be idea-sharing ON THE VIDEO or the COMMENTS, not on my personal commentary; I have offered an option to take it up into the "Debator's Arena". However, since the "argument" has proceeded as far as it could go, at least for the moment, then I don't think it would be worth it to start a new topic in the section. Here's a mind-refresher: "I would comment further, but I would like to hear some ideas or first-impressions. Of course, only of the video/comments itself! If you want to talk about the ideas I'm sprouting then let's take it up in the 'Debater's Arena' (DUN DUN DUN!)" (1st comment). It was my mistake to continue the argument and not to out-right tell you to stop, so it's partially my fault. Let's call it quits and leave commentary on the link instead; PM me if you can find evidence (refer to last paragraphs excluding this one), but must be at least of ten peoples experiences, and I will publicly say I am wrong in this aspect and must reconsider my observations in comparison to your argument. PM is first required with a response back if you want me to talk further about the discussion we had in the "Debator's Arena", assuming you make a new topic in that section pertaining to our discussion, in the topic concerning this discussion.

[Notagh]

I would say I DO have enough data, since I have had in total about five years of experience dealing with people who believe in psi, indirectly or not. I have hardly met anyone who speaks of this "Warrior lifestyle", save for a few individuals. To mention my claims are then baseless is absurd.

 Imagine there is a pie.  The pie represents all psions.  Now, how small of a slice do you think of these actual psions 1)  Know they are psions and identify themselves with the word "psion" and 2) Are an active member of the OEC?  To cite one example there are lots of those who are psions in Asia.  Have you been to those sectors of Asia for long periods of time?  I have.  For longer than a year.  Have you met these psions?

The thing as "ONLY" was in terms with trying to defy gravity. Society says man cannot do so without the aid of machines or of external matter. As a psion, if you retain this skepticism then a sub-c block is created. This is in part from societys influence, hardly from the individual. Another way to get away from the programming of society would be to erase the memories through machinery, which I have NOT heard of. The best way to get away from it is to either suppress it or to let the memory fade away. Can you offer me another way to get away from societys programming AFTER being programmed?

Ahh, yes.  I have been able to erase these mental blocks without the use of either suppression or the fading of memory, and it is disproving the mental block.  Society tells me tk is impossible.  I get a mental block.  I perform pk to stick it to society/  the memory is not repressed nor forgotten.  It is ridiculed by my brain.  I don't forget and I don't repress.  What I do is consider, assign it to a certain type of map of reality, and, if the situation calls for it, let is pass through me.  "It is the a line from the Bene Gesserit "Litany Against Fear" in Frank Herber's novel Dune:

    I must not fear.
    Fear is the mind-killer.
    Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
    I will face my fear.
    I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
    And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
    Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
    Only I will remain.

"  
Is the best description of what I do, except I do not forget, and I do not repress, unless there is no further need for the memory.

I am aware not all psions are in the OEC. But I doubt you know more than twenty in personal life that don't even register on OECs; talking to them on the internet do not count. You and me ONLY know the majority of psions from the internet. Even if the majority of psions you have met are not from the internet, it doesn't really matter; there are multiple people on this forum that claim they don't know anybody, or too little people, who practice psionics in their area. So the data I only practically have to work with is data from the internet. I don't care if there are people who practice psionics that aren't in OECs; I don't know them. Nor could I even know them, since I am pretty sure they wouldn't want to tell me in the first place. So you are just arguing with "data", that is to say psions who are not telling others they are psions, which in itself is pointless. Of course I can't know every member from the OEC either; too much to keep track of, at least from my part.

Here you admit your dataset is incomplete, yet persist in your umbrella assumptions of psions as a whole.  Doesn't seem right to me.  As for your claims of not knowing more than 20, well I would point you to the acupuncture and/or energy arts institutes that act in conjunctions with major universities in several Asian countries, such as South Korea.  Indeed in South Korea widespread superstitions have a remarkable similarity to correct psionic practices and information.  The similar was true in Europe if I have heard correctly.  I am not entirely referring to C.G. Jung's work of Psychology and Alchemy here, either.

This much I DON'T need a Ph. D, since there has been no sufficient evidence to conclude such "will power" can affect material external of us.

Thus has nothing to do with what I meant, and I think you know it.  I asked, of course, for a Ph.D in psychology to base upon your assumptions about the absolution of society's mental blocks.  You seem to be thinking I asked you for a Ph.D on badass.

I don't care if you can't properly understand my argument and think about it on your own; I came here for personal research. Otherwise I like to post links to articles as a hobby. I am arguing the majority of psions I have met don't honestly care about psionics, in the sense they separate it from their own experience of physical reality. Obviously this is from my own personal experience; what else can it be from? There has never been a statistical study about psions, at least from what I'm aware of, that actually shows if the individuals care about what they do.

I guess you haven't heard of the study / project they ran in Psion's Guild.  Among other things, like allergies and genetics, there were inquiries into the psychologies as well, if I remember correctly.  Your argument comes from no study but your own personal experience...  It is perfectly reasonable for me to take them with a bucket of salt.

Of course, my initial argument is from personal experience, obviously. You have your own personal experience that seems to "contradict" what I am saying, which is also obvious. Therefore it is obvious as well that our personal "data" is biased; that is to say, is subjective and is not measured with unbiased instruments. You are then not refuting my argument, but simply offering another possibility, two things which are quite different. Offering just personal "data" is then not enough, but a report conducted with proper instruments, while having peers to review the report, to show that you are right and I am wrong. Since this report does not exist then there can be no further "argument", if that's what you want to call it but I would say babbling, but only a possibility of a future flame war. Since that is against the rules we will no longer "argue". If you want to carry on this discussion and actually prove me wrong, then feel free to send me a PM.

You are quite correct  But yet here you admit you have no argument, for your theory has also not completed your own course.  I have no need to try to disprove assumptions that were never proven in the first place.  After all, if it isn't proof, why assume it is?

Even though I have not directly answered your last sentences, I think what was written above indirectly answers if I have data, in the sense the most unbiased it can get, clearly: no. Like you stated, neither do you.

Same as previous, if both our datas our faulty, as you claim, then neither of us is right until proven otherwise.  Yet and likewise, your assumptions were never proven.  In your own words you have mentioned the various factors needed before you should argue such assumptions as if they were even close to fact.  This, and only this, is what caused me affront about your post.

Remember, this was supposed to be idea-sharing ON THE VIDEO or the COMMENTS, not on my personal commentary; I have offered an option to take it up into the "Debator's Arena". However, since the "argument" has proceeded as far as it could go, at least for the moment, then I don't think it would be worth it to start a new topic in the section. Here's a mind-refresher: "I would comment further, but I would like to hear some ideas or first-impressions. Of course, only of the video/comments itself! If you want to talk about the ideas I'm sprouting then let's take it up in the 'Debater's Arena' (DUN DUN DUN!)" (1st comment). It was my mistake to continue the argument and not to out-right tell you to stop, so it's partially my fault. Let's call it quits and leave commentary on the link instead; PM me if you can find evidence (refer to last paragraphs excluding this one), but must be at least of ten peoples experiences, and I will publicly say I am wrong in this aspect and must reconsider my observations in comparison to your argument. PM is first required with a response back if you want me to talk further about the discussion we had in the "Debator's Arena", assuming you make a new topic in that section pertaining to our discussion, in the topic concerning this discussion.

 That's fine with me  Of course the thing that bothers me is that you are assuming you are correct without the very proof you ask of me to disprove your claims, yet you go along and continue to claim such claims.  This upsets me.  My apologies if this should have been done in the Debator's Arena.  If you acquiesce, I am perfectly fine with all
of these posts being quoted into the Debator's Arena and these posts being deleted by the authors.

EDIT: My apologies for a late response, I was busy.
EDIT2:  Feel free to delete any and all posts about this argument, for they have been publicly archived verbatim at http://shiftedperspectives.net/forum/index.php/topic,1438.msg17208.html#msg17208

[issacweirdo]

Aye, I don't care much. I figured midway the babbling that this was going to get nowhere, but I still wanted to see what you would come out with. There's no point in continuing this further until evidence is provided. My 2nd to last post did insert that I was right, something I was planning to delete after I realized midway that we both lack statistical evidence. However, as I believe you were when you saw what I was writing was at least a bit of annoyance, so I forgot to do edit my post; my fault. There's nothing else to further say for the moment, though I am inclined to think there ever will be.
EDIT
Typo