Log of Astral Chat 10-25

This is a rather long chat that I did.  It went on for a little more than 2 hours.  At one point we had 14 people there.  It went very well with most everyone behaving and following the rules.  I tried to clean up as much as the spelling as I could, but there were places that I had no idea what was being said.

Comments and questions are more than welcomed.

[14:00]  CHAT BEGINS
[14:00]  welcome to the psichat room and to the astral chat, hosted by me
[14:01]  today we are going to talk about the astral projection, as much as I can in 2 hours.
[14:01]  You all will be able to ask questions and comment, but only during certain times.  But first let me go over the rules with you all.
[14:02]  we will be using the ! system.  It is the internet version of raising your hand to talk.  If you have a question you will type in ! and wait for me to call on you. I will go in order of who types ! first.  I will try not to skip any of you, but it may happen.  just type in ! and wait to be called on again.  If you have a comment type in !comment so we know.  you can respond to a comment or a question by typing ! comment/answer to (name)
[14:03]  I ask that you wait until I ask for comments and questions, which I'll do after a bit of talking.  If I'm lecturing, please hold all questions and comments until I ask for them.  I might ask for a word or a term during the lecture and only then can you talk.
[14:04]  Please obey the rules because it's hard to keep order and we want to get as much in as possible.  Also note that you need to type in "." every so often because the chatroom will kick you out for not talking aka being idle
[14:05]  so just type . in and it will be ignored.  If you have to go, just go., don't do the whole "goodbye" thing.  We understand.  Also don't change your name during the chat.  It's hard to follow in the log and annoying to me. oh and please don't do smilies.  They are annoying to edit
[14:06]  are there any questions or comments at this time?
[14:06]  !
[14:07]  do we have to type out . or can we just type something and it will count as us being active?
[14:07]  but not actually press enter?
[14:07]  you can type really anything, but . is easiest to edit out and less distractive
[14:07]  ok
[14:07]  You have to press enter
[14:08]  and please wait to be called on before talking
[14:08]  any other questions?
[14:08]  ! Comment
[14:08]  yes
[14:09]  !
[14:09]  monkey
[14:09]  will the log be posted up?
[14:09]  yes, it always is
[14:10]  ok let?s get started on the topic.  Please hold all questions and comments until I ask for them
[14:11]  Today we're going to talk about astral projection, also known as OOBE or OBE which stands for Out of Body Experience. It is usually agreed on that OBE is the more scientific term and more accepted, but I fell in love with astral projection, or "ap".  I will say "aping" which means astral projecting.
[14:13]  This chat will be of my opinions and some of the opinions of others.  Please don't be offended if I say something you disagree with.  You may leave at any time, but do not start an argument with me during the chat.  Also understand that there no facts to ap.  There is no true "proof" as we call it.
[14:15]  There are many theories out there, all different, all based on experience, making everything in question.  So do not take my word as truth.  My experiences differ from others and there is no solid "black and white" with aping.
[14:16]  You might be asking what is the astral plane?  Well in my opinion and experience the astral plane is really a collection of many planes.  The amount of planes has been argued by many.  Some say 7.  I believe that number comes from religious background, but I could be wrong.  I'm not religious.  Some say there are unknown about of planes.  That is my theory btw.
[14:17]  There is also the idea that there are high planes and low planes.  Some believe that you can only go to certain planes based on many things.
[14:18]  are there any questions or comments at this time?
[14:18]  !
[14:19]  monkey
[14:19]  !
[14:19]  "based on many things"... for example, like what?
[14:19]  !
[14:19]  we'll go into that more, but open mindedness, personality, permission from astral spirits and so on.
[14:19]  vine:
[14:21]  1. The distinction between astral projection and OBE is considered to be that of what bodies, or how much of each body, is being projected- mental projection, astral projection proper which is the projection of the emotional, fludiic body or etheric projection, the projection of ones... well, etheric body which often causes a death-like trance at it's severe ends. What are your comments on this theory? 2. I have to strongly protest the statement
[14:22]  being no facts regarding the astral, and say that thee are if anything too many facts, that widely extend over different regions and which are every day being discovered by concientious expeirment by those in the schools of the great mysteries.
[14:22]  I believe they are one and the same, but please, no long arguements over complex theories.  We have a lot to get through
[14:23]  ice:
[14:23]  In 439 BC a man from carthage devised that 7 is a perfect number based on the star patterns and the seven known constellations found by Ptolemy and it was put into perspective as the number of planes in 104 AD when Constantine changed the order and several groups put 7 as a basis of existence.
[14:23]  ah thanks
[14:23]  !
[14:23]  sleepy:
[14:24]  so the astral plane is sort of a different "level" where one can go when astral projecting?
[14:24]  or planes
[14:25]  it is thought that the astral plane is higher up and harder to get to than the "lower" planes such as the ether plane (probably misspelled that)
[14:25]  .
[14:25]  anyone else?
[14:26]  so planes are basically different levels of where one can go when astral projecting?
[14:26]  that is one theory, some believe there are no levels
[14:27]  !
[14:27]  red:
[14:27]  btw red is the last question
[14:27]  but what about those that have been to the astral plane? can we trust them on there experiences?
[14:28]  !answer
[14:28]  well we will be going into that next
[14:28]  but monkey go ahead with your answer
[14:29]  well, it depends on belief. How can you trust anyone who says they've made any sort of construct? And it also depends on who it is. if it's someone you trust then trust their experiences, at lest a s a primary basis for now
[14:29]  good answer
[14:30]  ok back to lecture time.  please hold all questions and comments until I ask for them
[14:31]  we will now go into the topic of fluff with astral projection.  We must ask ourselves if this is real or not.  Why?  Should we believe these theories?
[14:31]  first I will go into why not believe in aping.
[14:32]  some say our projects are dreams or daydreams.  Some say we have watched too many movies and shows.  some say we want to escape from reality so much we create our own world
[14:32]  science mostly denies aping to be real.  They say it's the mind's hullication (sp?) or a mental disorder.  There was one test that a group did that fooled the mind into thinking it was projecting.
[14:34]  and then there is the whole problem with fluff.  Fluff is bs, made up claims for attention, fame, or whatever.  A lot of ap has fluff mixed in and it's very hard to tell the differences
[14:35]  many people who claim they can talk to spirits and demons are fluff bunnies.  You can usually pick them out on their beliefs in other areas.  But then there are the people who are considered to be good psions who are logical and anti fluff who claim a lot in the astral plane.  Can we trust them?  Should we?  well we will go into that next
[14:36]  but first are there questions or comments on this?  Please do not attempt to argue my points.  I was merely showing you what is believed.  We will go into why aping is believed to be real next
[14:37]  !comment
[14:37]  DT
[14:37]  ? Can we trust them?  Should we?...? I think we have to have these experiences first hand to know for sure
[14:37]  !
[14:37]  agreed
[14:37]  vine
[14:39]  I would say that a 'by their results you shall know them' philosophy is best when separating the what from the chaff. I would also suggest that if you can?t talk to a wide range of beings on astral, and get results that even the most die hard empiricist would accept as valid evidence, you likely don?t have the competence necessary to AP in the first place and should o back to more basic forms of training for preparation
[14:40]  true.
[14:41]  questions?
[14:41]  ok then let?s move on to the next part
[14:41]  please hold all questions and comments until I ask for them
[14:42]  now I will show you my experiences as to why I believe aping is real.  Please understand this is my own experience.  Your findings may be different.  I have had only one projection that I can promise you was real.  The rest, no matter what I say or believe, I can not be certain it happened.  I tend to day dream a lot and not like my reality, so I am very open to the idea the rest was made up without me meaning to.
[14:44]  my one experience was with a guy name Joe.  He was the owner and admin of a now dead site Universal LightWorkers. I had been complaining about not wanting to project, but felt that I had to, the details are in my log, pm me on the site for them.  He volunteered to come with me.  I had not done this with anyone, but I told him where I was projecting and what I would look like.  This was done on the computer.  I got off and went to my bed.  I projected and found him.  We went on our little adventure and when we were done, I got up from my bed and to the computer again.  He was on and asked me if I had just stopped projecting two mins ago.  I said I had.
[14:47]  we talked about our trip together, telling each other details that the other had forgotten.  There was no way we could have made up what we said.  He described everything so perfectly he had to have gone there.  There was nothing on the internet for him to read off of.  So I believe that one experience to be true.  You may not.
[14:48]  I have also heard from another friend who I trust to be logical that she aped to a friend's room and saw what he was wear and then imed him with her findings.  She was completely right.
[14:49]  and finally my other reason, weak but true, is if aping is being made up, well it's a darn good daydream, something I have never come close to making up.  I can not predict what will happen ahead of time, which I know I can do with my daydreams.
[14:50]  I come aping with questions and problems and end up with answers I did not know or think of.  So that is my take on why aping is real.
[14:50]  !comment
[14:50]  are there questions or comments.  I ask that you don't take my experience apart to little tiny bits.
[14:50]  !
[14:51]  you also can share your own experiences and opinions
[14:51]  DT
[14:51]  one thing I want to clarify: can you be projecting and still be conscious in our world?
[14:51]  !answer
[14:51]  to a degree you can
[14:51]  If I recall correctly, the ethereal plane is the one that boarders the physical, not the astral, so when you are observing someone's physical actions it is ethereal projection.
[14:51]  but if you pay attention tot he real world too much, you don't project or not as well as your attention is divided
[14:51]  !comment on Brilenus' comment
[14:52]  Bril wait for me to call on you
[14:52]  gig:
[14:52]  oh I just wanted to answer DT's question
[14:52]  but it seems you have already so its ok
[14:52]  go on
[14:52]  ok, vine
[14:54]  !
[14:54]  Brilenus: You're absolutely correct according to my model, but nevertheless, the astral being in a sense the formative yet ziratic realm you can pick up the details of physical form it although it won?t be an exact copy but more the different forms and iages that are associated, rather than linear. In itCTS CAN ENSE THOUGH ASTRLA VIEWING OF PHYSICLA OBECTS CAN BE
[14:54]  INCEDIBLY INSIGHTLY... AND' APOLOGIES_I accidentally hit caps lock
[14:55]  aeon:
[14:55]  I remembered skimming the famous OBE-er Robert Monroe's accounts, he summarized it in his second book as having had a strange experiences that he wanted to investigate further, but... scientists rejected it outright, parapsychologists were interested but had no data, and traditional mystics said, "Come live in our monastery for a few decades." It made me appreciate communities like thePsiWorld a whole lot more, but it also underscores
[14:55]  I heard some lab experiments were done with Monroe and an anonymous subject "Miss Z" where they were asked to OBE somewhere and make an observation that they couldn't guess... but I can't seem to find any copies of the reports.
[14:55]  done
[14:56]  !
[14:56]  yeah scientist are generally against this, they tend to look for info that proves it doesn't exist, but this is my opinion
[14:56]  geo
[14:57]  i would like to comment that if you can AP and correctly guess what the surroundings of an area are or what a person is wearing then the AP must be real
[14:57]  ! comment
[14:57]  well don't forget rving, but in this case, i believed my friend
[14:57]  DT
[14:58]  I remember reading somewhere that they did some testing involving obes and they put numbers around the room where it was impossible for the people to read, unless they were in obe. I don't know the results though
[14:59]  !comment
[14:59]  red
[15:02]  scientists are mostly against psionics and aping and everything metaphysical, because they don?t want to give up there research on things they?ve found out about already.  They don?t want make people think there insane, and for people not to believe in science itself, just a little thing i think about sometimes
[15:02]  ! comment red
[15:03]  ok let's not get off topic
[15:03]  sorry
[15:03]  there is still a lot to cover
[15:03]  no you brought up a good point, but I don't want to argue why scientists believe this
[15:03]  so monkey: you get the last word on that topic
[15:04]  alright, thanks. I was just going to add that if they were to admit that AP and such DOES exist, it would definitely defy some principal laws that they've made over the centuries. (i don't know exactly what, so don?t ask me)
[15:05]  scientists are always having to fix their laws on how things work.
[15:05]  are there any more questions?
[15:05]  I would like to move on if there aren't
[15:06]  ok moving on.  Please hold all questions and comments until I ask for them
[15:06]  Now let's look at why project and what you can do when projecting
[15:07]  aping can be a lot of fun.  Really, it is.  It can be very safe, very different from anything you've gone through, and very entertaining.  the lovely thing about aping is the fact there are few limits.  You can pretty much do anything and then more.
[15:08]  You can fly, you can walk through walls, you can jump higher than you ever could, you can go anywhere you want on earth.  You can do any skill you want while projecting.  I could tell you countless stories of all the fun things I've done.
[15:09]  You can control your surrounding.  You can turn water into ice.  You can create trees, a ball, and clothing.  You can change how you look, your hair color, skin or whatever.  Think of the movie, The Matrix for this.  It's in many ways like the matrix because you have trouble thinking in this new freedom
[15:10]  Now that you know its fun and why, let's go into other reasons.  You can go there for healing, emotional, physical, and spiritual.  I personally went through a lot of abuse at home and suffered in ways I was not aware of.  When I started projecting, I was made aware of these problems and started to work on them.  I have matured quite a bit since then.
[15:12]  I have gone to learn, to study, to open my mind to new ideas.  the fun parts of project were mostly taught to me as I projected night after night.  I learned to look at the world differently, to study energy in ways I never thought.  I have projected to solve problems or to get advice on family problems, site problems, and just drama problems.  if projection is false, then I wish to argue how could I receive help I did not know how else to get
[15:14]  but I will stop there and ask for questions and comments
[15:14]  !
[15:14]  !
[15:14]  monkey
[15:15]  You said that about getting advice for the problems you were facing... how? I mean, did you talk to someone, or something? in the astral realm?
[15:15]  I would go to one of my astral spirit guides and talk
[15:16]  !comment
[15:16]  and I know that may sound very fluff and spiritual like, but it my experiences
[15:16]  geo:
[15:16]  then red
[15:16]  you said you can do psi stuff you can not do in the real world. would this be able to help you learn about how to do these kind of abilities?
[15:17]  !
[15:17]  some, I personally do not practice psionics much when I project.  I rather get the real experience.
[15:18]  I have more learn some theories about how energy works.  pm me for more details on that
[15:18]  ok red
[15:18]  your experiences are very interesting. I think that?s pretty awesome
[15:18]  !
[15:18]  thank you.  vine
[15:20]  I would like to comment on two things, one that the responsiveness to will varies depending on what locale one is in though the general 'common area' tebds to be extremely responsive, not being tied t any one sphere. Secondly, that related to the device one can get is the fact that travel to all spheres that
[15:20]  ok anyone else?
[15:21]  !
[15:21]  form existence of the underpinnings of existence, can be used as pat f a large quest f personal evolution and mastery of all aspects of oneself and existence ather than us general guides for specific thins-for example, traveling t the planetary realms and learning ways f war at the martial sphere, improvements in memory at the mecurial, etc and that done extensively a true mastery and
[15:21]  balance will tend to result
[15:22]  I would argue that, but this is not the time
[15:22]  monkey
[15:23]  You said: "some, I personally do not practice psionics much when I project.  I rather get the real experience. " Ok, but what are the benefits of practicing psionics in the astral realm? Or is it the same as practicing it in this realm?
[15:24]  ! answer
[15:24]  well while you don't build any "psionic muscles" when projecting, you do get to see where you could go in a skill and have that help you when you go to practice
[15:24]  .
[15:24]  DT
[15:24]  You can take the sensations that practicing in astral gives certain feelings, different techniques ect.  And move them into your real practice.
[15:25]  !comment
[15:25]  gig
[15:25]  are we getting to methods of astral today?
[15:26]  yes
[15:26]  ok, continue
[15:26]  !
[15:26]  in fact I will give you all an option in a few
[15:27]  vine: make this short
[15:28]  The fact that a distinction is being made between 'real practice' and 'astral practice' is patently absurd and shows a lack of any real coherent metaphysical theory being held, a lack of introspection and analysis necessary for success in energy work and a general lack of thought into how different skills interrelate.
[15:30]  again vine, I'm not arguing theory in this chat.  There is too much to do.  If you don't like what i have to say, you can leave.
[15:30]  anyone else?
[15:31]  !
[15:31]  shay
[15:31]  What has been covered already?
[15:31]  wait until the log is out, or ask geo
[15:31]  anyone else?
[15:32]  ok I have an option for you all: we can go over dangers of aping, but we will have to go on overtime to cover that and how to ap.
[15:32]  !
[15:33]  or we can just talk about a how to ap and end at the 2 hour limit. So which one do you all want?  Option 1 or 2?
[15:33]  2
[15:33]  Door number 1
[15:33]  2
[15:33]  1
[15:33]  I think we should First cover how to, Then the dangers.
[15:34]  yea
[15:34]  yes please, because my brother and i have an hour
[15:34]  1.5? Like... how to's, that include safety tips, that we break at our own discretion?
[15:34]  ok so you all are willing to stay?
[15:34]  yes, as long as i can
[15:34]  we might go for 2.5 hrs total
[15:35]  if we do as Shay says, then those that can't break the limit can leave after and the rest can stay...
[15:35]  so first how to and then dangers?
[15:35]  I've already used up this long of my life, why not go for the gold!
[15:35]  yes JK
[15:35]  Yes.
[15:35]  how to, then dangers
[15:35]  ok then we'll do that.  ok then hold all questions and comments until I ask for them
[15:36]  How to project
[15:37]  first off I have one thing to confess.  For all my experience and stories, my method is slightly different from others and I'm rather bad at explaining it in such a way that others get results.  I apologize for this.  I will present what I know of other methods and you all may share your own if any of you can project.  but with that said, I will do my best.
[15:37]  the idea of projecting is that you want to leave your physical body.  Your physical body and the world you view and feel right now is in one plane, if you go by the multi plane theory.
[15:38]  in order to enter the astral plane, you must separate from your "real" body.  The plane you are in now is usually known as the real time zone plane, but this is argued
[15:39]  Also known as the physical Plane...
[15:39]  your astral body is what you project to be yourself.  In other words, what you think and reflect as yourself.
[15:40]  there are many methods to project, all of them different.  many people find that one method won't work for them, so it is encouraged that you try many methods before giving up
[15:41]  there is also a sad truth that not everyone can project, or project quickly.  Some people may take 2 years of constant practice before doing it
[15:41]  I am strange in that I was able to do it my first time.  which may be why I can't explain it well, I haven't gone through the struggle most have.  But please, do not give up if you don't do it the first or tenth time.  Most people usually will do half projections
[15:43]  they will get their body half out, but then freak out and be unable to project.  Some people will only start learning to feel their astral body and never get any further
[15:44]  now the idea is to find your astral body which exist in you and then find a way to get the astral body out.  there are many ways to do this, but I will tell you mine
[15:45]  I like to envision myself, lying down, calm, relaxed.  I have to forget my body, get rid of my fears and doubts, and let go of anything that is distractive.  You might want to meditate to help you
[15:46]  When I am calm, I envision a fan blowing through me.  My astral body starts to float out of my "real" body
[15:47]  I have already picked a place I want to go, say my bedroom, about two feet away from where I am lying down.  I have my astral body float to that exact spot.  I will know that I have done it and not envisioned it only because it will feel like I really am there.  I will not feel my physical body anymore and I will see my room the way it is, in the dark with all the detail
[15:48]  but that is my method
[15:48]  any questions or comments?
[15:48]  !
[15:48]  !
[15:48]  !
[15:48]  or other methods to share?
[15:48]  aeon
[15:48]  !
[15:49]  !
[15:49]  Some techniques of APing relate APs to lucid dreaming. What are your thoughts on these techniques?
[15:50]  they are related.  In fact being able to lucid dream, controlling your dream content, can help you project.  I have heard of plenty of examples of people projecting from an lucid dream
[15:50]  geo
[15:50]  i remember reading somewhere that when you first AP, you do not recognize all the small details. how would you suggest we learn to recognize these smaller details easier?
[15:51]  yes.  Sometimes people can't see or see well when they first project.  don't worry, your "eyes" will adjust with practice. it is very confusing first to project and there is so much going on and so much to see that yu may not notice stuff just like you wouldn't notice all the details of a new room that you walked into
[15:51]  monkey
[15:52]  if I were to AP now, and I walked downstairs as my astral self, where my family would be setting, would they be able to see me? And can other people who are APing see me, and vice versa?
[15:53]  ! comment
[15:53]  !comment
[15:53]  your family would be where they were.  and no they would not see you or feel you.  You have to be very trained and advance to even notice.
[15:53]  DT
[15:53]  !comment
[15:53]  You just said what I was going to.
[15:53]  then vine and then nomad
[15:56]  Thee is a slight possibility of materialization-it's been done before-but it's very rare and equies a high level of skill, and typically isn't done intentionally. However, it is possible to be noticed-thee ae multiple reports at the least of someone projecting pinching someone and a ed mark being noted the next day, for example. This is a special case and not the rule though
[15:56]  thank you
[15:56]  nomand:
[15:58]  !
[15:59]  because red has been waiting and I'm not hearing anything from nomand in a pm, red go
[16:00]  commenting on others noticing you while aping. as jk said they have to have a really really high skill level to even notice you at all
[16:01]  monkey
[16:02]  !
[16:03]  can you just run through the stages of what you feel during the time you're trying to AP? I know you first feel detached from your body, and then you get the vibrations, but I don't know what comes next. Also, apparently, the vibrations are your astral self trying to break out your physical body... is that right?
[16:03]  yes.  From what I have heard, those vibrations will start to turn into a pulling sensation of your astral body breaking free. Most people are scared by this feeling and will stop projecting because of the fear or wanting to
[16:04]  geo, sorry
[16:05]  what would you look like to someone who looked at you while you were APing and would you recognize them looking at you?
[16:05]  !answer Geo
[16:05]  the way you wish to present yourself
[16:05]  monkey
[16:06]  sorry, i meant someone looking at your physical plane self
[16:06]  my example is if I wish to wear some sort of fancy dress when I project, and have my hair up and make up on, that is what you would see.
[16:06]  ohh
[16:06]  Geo, did you mean your physical body? Because that would just look like you were asleep (or it does from over a webcam)
[16:06]  they would see you looking as though you were asleep
[16:06]  ok
[16:07]  anyone else?
[16:07]  !original topic of projection methods+comment on Geo's comment
[16:07]  go
[16:07]  !answer to Geo's second question
[16:07]  !
[16:07]  wait for vine to finish and then go monkey
[16:09]  saying things can be noted with someone in a state of deep projection, at it's extreme the trance can reach  state where reaching is undetectable. For method of leaving the body, the thousand cuts would be a rather extreme and permanent on, for less painful methods I generally use one of three depending upon what level I wish to each-one, I?ll just visualize a doorway in font of me, concentrate on it until the beginnings of focal trance
[16:10]  reached and then open it. This is very convenient fo entering ealmcorelating to abstract concepts-projecting through tarot cards is a nice exercise of example. This is often considered a mentla oeciton rather than an astral projection. The second method I use is to relax and step my awareness into my astral form and beat my wings, which generates a life concept that I associate with flight. For a full OBE I will relax until all awareness of p
[16:10]  well I was going to the first bit of Vine;s "speech"
[16:11]  if not, just say done
[16:11]  done
[16:12]  gig
[16:12]  he's our last question and comment
[16:12]  is lost and I feel as if I?m floating in a void, and then do the rope method wherein I concentrate on my solar plexus and then feel a rpe there and just pull myself out, which usually induces a very strong pull. Once familiarity is reached with this though one can will oneself out into a full OBE if one is in a deep enough relaxed state... just thought some slightly different methods might be good/useful. Done
[16:12]  vine, please
[16:12]  sorry, i forgot what i was going to say, continue on JK
[16:13]  ok well I know I said we would cover dangers, but I think we had done enough.  Any more and my own attention span is going to die on me
[16:13]  we'll cover dangers another time.  it would work better in another topic anyhow. so with that, I'm going to end the chat
[16:13]  thank you all for coming.  You were great
[16:13]  END CHAT

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