Fluff Chat Feb. 3, 2008

Here is the log of the fluff chat that happened Feb. 3, 2008 from 2pm to 4pm. This version is the edited version of all side comments not related to the topic and the comings and goings of people, as well as all "!" that were used to ask permission to speak (like raising your hand) and grammar and spell issues. We had close to 30 people come to the chat which was far more than I even hoped for, so it was a success. Please note this is a long chat and you may do better to copy this into word where it can be read in hunks.

<JediKaren> ok welcome to the chatroom
<JediKaren> today we are going to talk about what is and isn't fluff
<JediKaren> but first we are going over the rules. Please understand I am very serious about the rules
<JediKaren> if you disobey them you will be kicked and I don't want to hear whining about it.
<JediKaren> if you get to be a real problem you will be banned from the chat for the rest of the day. again I don't want to hear whining about it.
<JediKaren> Rules:
<JediKaren> We're going to try something a bit different. First I will talk. When I'm talking, you will not talk. You will wait for me to say "Is there any questions or comments?" When I ask that, you can then request permission to talk.
<JediKaren> The way you ask is by typing "!" without the quotes. I then will call on people in order of asking. You can of course ask more than one question at a time, but you will have to ask permission. If you forget to do the ! you will be kicked. If you get kicked 3 times, then you will be banned for the rest of the day. This is all being created so I don't get overrun with ten million questions.
<JediKaren> When you are done talking, please let us know by saying "done". That way you don't get cut off and I can call on the next person
<JediKaren> here are some normal rules we have:
<JediKaren> no one liners in a row like this
<JediKaren> I
<JediKaren> can
<JediKaren> move the
<JediKaren> psi wheel!
<JediKaren> see how annoying that is?
<JediKaren> no cursing/flaming/fighting/attacking a person with psi or words. Be polite and respectful of each other
<JediKaren> be patient
<JediKaren> please do not Iim me during the chat because there are too many of you and I simply can't talk to all of you AND talk in the chatroom
<JediKaren> if you have a problem, pm a mod or pm me on the FORUM. do NOT pm me in the chatroom
<JediKaren> the reason for this talk today is because the fluff on the forum and chatroom has gotten out of hand to the point people are leaving the site and that's really bad.
<JediKaren> some of you may know what fluff is and some of you have never heard it.
<JediKaren> Fluff is another word for bullshit...made up abilities or stating things that just plain can't be real aka possible.
<JediKaren> But there is a problem with fluff. Fluff is an opinion and opinions always differ from person to person. What you consider fluff, may not be fluff to another person. The same it true with sites. What this site considers fluff, may not be fluff on another site. So today we will go over what fluff is considered on this site as well as others.
<JediKaren> Fluff is a psionic term btw.
<JediKaren> so what are some examples of fluff I hear you think?
<JediKaren> Fluff is generally considered among the psi sites as stuff like teleportation or flying. I know some of you are crying out "but teleportation is real"
<JediKaren> but on most, popular, big sites that are usually held to know their stuff, teleportation is considered fluff due to the fact science has yet to prove it and for 99% of people, no one has ever witness it being done.
<JediKaren> ok questions?
<shaamansu> Fluff is known, as Karen says, as Fluff...it is also termed BS...and I am all of you have heard the term Fluffy Bunny, which has been around a long time and encompasses all pagan paths as well.
<JediKaren> ah ok. Thank you. for those who don't know a fluff bunny is someone who believes in fluff as being real.
<shaamansu> Fluff is produced basically by vivid imaginations from reading books, playing games and pretending, which in themselves is not bad, but when applied as a real claim on a serious psionics or pagain site, will really make people get their dander up....DONE
<GEOvanne> ok two things: what i understand fluff is (don?t know how much I?ve missed), its a name given to a variation of an ability to make it seem like an ability on its own, such as pyrokinesis which is just PK done on fire, and I don?t quite get what shaam is saying
<JediKaren> ok you bring up a good point that I?ll talk about next.
<JediKaren> shaam, if you would like to answer that, go ahead
<shaamansu> Ok, People who make extravagant claims of excessive powers...where a great amount of study and experience are required to truly be skilled...then you know that you are dealing with someone who really is not what they seem to be. DONE
<Furmen> I noticed you mentioned that Teleportation has never been witnessed nor ever been done before so it's false, but in all honesty, Teleportation on a molecular level has been performed by modern day scientists, actually done several years ago using Photons and a method called Entanglement. Though only possible with molecules at this time, it's a part of quantum physics that is proven reality. >>>
<Furmen> Though knowing this factor, do you think that, in the future, teleportation will be psionically done or would it be done via technology as it's current path is taking?
<JediKaren> ok, thank you for the point, but that has only been done on a very small level and most people who claim to do it are talking about teleporting themselves
<Furmen> That's impossible modern day, ok DONE
<JediKaren> ok now I'm going back to talk, pleas hold all questions until I ask
<JediKaren> As I think Geo pointed out some abilities are real enough, but the term is fluff
<JediKaren> this usually is about the kinesis abilities
<JediKaren> let me make it clear: Yes you can move the ground, Yes you can move water, control ice and so on, but the names that are given are considered fluff.
<JediKaren> the reason why the name is considered fluff is because of some these names are just plain made up and never heard of
<JediKaren> things like vitaminskinesis, if I'm spelling that right, is suppose the control over vitamins in your body through psi. I don't know about you, but that sounds wacky. Why use psi when you can just take a pill. The pill is far safer and easier.
<JediKaren> but let us also remember what geokinesis is really just you using telekinesis (using your mind to control mass) on the ground..aka dirt
<JediKaren> there has and is a strong argument if photokinesis (the ability to control light) is real and the one about control shadows (I forget what name that is, pm me if you know) is real.
<JediKaren> is it generally considered that both are false and possibly the same thing. Both are considered fluff and are not believable if you think about it.
<JediKaren> anyway enough with me yapping, on to questions!
<Fearn> Also, many of the so called '-kinesises' are from comic books, and other sci-fi media
<JediKaren> oh side note: umbrakinesis is the shadow one
<xxflamexx> I realised the people made up these terms because they were to lazy to say things like, using Psychokinesis to move dirt, or that to do that, so instead they made it short term, just wanted to point something out. DONE
<linkmaste> Are more common terms like pyrokinesis, or aerokinesis fluffy? I agree with xxflamexx, that these terms are just easier ways to state what one is doing.
<JediKaren> generally no, but you will find some psions who disagree with me
<Anuboern> No one is saying none of this stuff is impossible but it is considered to be fluff if they are just claiming to be able to do this and not giving any reliable proof, or a plausable theory as to how this may be possible. To add to Jedikaren's point when someone creates a name to describe a certain Metaphysical event or ability, based on certain things which were made up in the beginning. Certain terms have been agreed upon as true by some, like telekinesis for example to explain the movement of matter using Metaphysical means. There is no need to add further names for this one event, and anything else which tries to define things which are already defined, but in a seemingly more specific way. Most people use names which are based on video games, television shows, anime, etc. and thus are usually related with the abilities shown on there, which are considered fluff, or false since there is no real proof or theory behind why they are real.
<GEOvanne> K so, its getting kinda confusing. the point at which fullf get annoying is when they consider it real by it self and it retards how they use other abilities.....
<GEOvanne> also, some time they are just made up cause the person doesn?t know what to call it, like my ability to kill stuff, at first i called it 'death wish' but now I know its just using telepathic suggestions. DONE
<shaamansu> If you google kinetics and/or kinesis...you get a lot of definitions for different abilities. The trick is learn to take these with a grain of salt...until you check out several different sites. Some sites that you google are fluff to begin with. and these are pretty easy to spot, if you know your subject. done
<pyrokinetic> The reason that pyrokinesis and aerokinesis are called that is because they include more than just moving fire and air with TK, they include changing aspects and properties as well. DONE
<spilledchemicals> Let us also not forget the cynics who don't fully believe in fluff, simply state they do to spread confusion and chaos into this community. These are harder to deal with since, thier belief not being on the line, they can answer rebuttles logically, if not misinformed.
<GEOvanne> about Death Wish, Birdman asked. I was able to kill the fish and snails in my tank. because i got bored. i don?t do it anymore. that was some years ago. i know because when only tow snalis were left, the one I wanted dead was the one that died. it usually took around a week and a half
<shaamansu> In response to Chemical......some people are just out to cause trouble and to stir up mayhem, grief and split the site. These are termed as TROLLS. Some people just like to get on a site and talk out of their nose, just to hear themselves. DONE
<AnimalGurl> Teleportation, I understand how it can be considered fluff in the physical. But there are plenty of people who claim to do it on the astral level. Many things are possible on the astral that are not here, how do you differentiate?
<JediKaren> these people would have to say astral plane
<JediKaren> and teleportation of your astral body is not fluff
<JediKaren> at leas it won't be considered fluff on this site. But we will into that next.
<AnimalGurl> also even though terms like cryokenesis are considered fluff cant they just be used to classify what you are doing as they probably use different pk tecniques?
<JediKaren> you need to understand that pk is an over all term for all kinesis abilities. any other name is a subset of pk
<GEOvanne> ! might i just add? there isn?t one set method to do PK
<AnimalGurl> ok im done, i don?t know enough about general pk to personally differentiate yet

JediKaren> then I suggest do some reading
<Seeting> I agree with xxflamexx, its easier to say instead of the long form, so i think it isnt fluffy but made up some ability that is not possible is a fluffy thing
<Seeting> I see the problems is that too much fluffy is on the site and others are leaving because of this reason. In my opinion, someone should write an article and mention everything about fluffy stuff or/and being fluffy in it. If you place it to the site or the forums, some fluffy
<Seeting> may not going to ask bullshit questions, because they will know that they will be treated like fluffies.
<JediKaren> ok now I'm going to talk. Please save questions until I ask for them
<JediKaren> also please type up your question on word or some place to make this quicker.
<JediKaren> As you all can see, there are different ideas as to what is fluff. This is why fluff can get so heated a topic and so hard to define.
<JediKaren> so let us pick on another topic that is known to be very fluffy: spiritualism

<JediKaren> now some of you don't know what spiritualism versus skepticism
<JediKaren> skepticism is the easier one to explain and understand.
<JediKaren> skepticism in the psionic sense is looking at everything in the point of view of disbelief. Skeptics look for hard facts, science, and logic to understand and prove an ability is real.
<JediKaren> Skeptics tend to be thought of as people that look at psionics as bs and we are just a bunch of daydreamers who watch too much tv.
<JediKaren> understand that is not a real skeptic and that is the kind you want to watch out for. A true skeptic keeps their mind open to the fact telekinesis could be real, but they look for ways to prove that is real or not.
<JediKaren> spiritualism is generally about well..the spirits, astral projection, and sometimes religion is added.
<JediKaren> but note this is my own definition and definitions about both change from person to person, site to site.
<JediKaren> spiritualism is often seen to be the same as fluff, which is not always true, but of course this depends on the person you are talking to.
<JediKaren> I have found some hard core skeptics who will throw out spiritualism to be all fluff, all bs. I have found others who will claim incredible things.
<JediKaren> you should be wary of both extremes. There aren't many of them, but they are incredibly stubborn, annoying, and loud. Sometimes ever very well spoken and educated.
<JediKaren> To me, I believe spiritual topics are valid, but to a point. This is why they are allowed on the site.
<JediKaren> you may note that ckakras, anything doing with the astral plane or astral temples, spirit guides, other powers are considered spiritualism.
<JediKaren> *chakra, sorry
<JediKaren> so with that any questions or comments?
<shaamansu> SPIRITUALISM BASICS outlines CONCEPTS of RELIGION
<shaamansu> Dang, scratch that...didn't get it all...Done
<JediKaren> ok good point. Most spiritualism comes from Christianity or pagan beliefs
<shaamansu> It won't paste it all, but basically Spiritualism is thought of as working with the inner you, balancing all you are to allow you to see and "see" more, communicate with entities/spirits, natural and be aware of all around you.
<shaamansu> Skepticism on the other hand can be found in people to afraid to really think "out-of-the-box on one side, and those who are open to learning more.
<JediKaren> true. I often find the trend with long lasting psions to be they start out hard core skeptical and slowly turn to spiritualism.
<BirdMan> Speaking of skeptics, I've noticed a lot have a, "show me now or you're crazy" sort of mentality. Where they're open to it as long as you can show them that it's real, while with pk and the like it might be possible, more subtle forms of psi like energy manipulation practioners seem to suffer when the fore mentioned skeptic isn't sensitive to changes in energy in the first place. Any tips on handling these types of people?
<JediKaren> sure, tell them what I tell them
<JediKaren> basically I tell them that showing them won't really convince them and that really is true. You will have to do it yourself in order to convince yourself. Also these people aren't very mature when they ask that, so they aren't worth bothering with.
<MBSD> We're discussing it and making sure newbies know what it is and how to handle it.
<GEOvanne> about what birdman said: I have a friend like that. he doesn?t believe, even though my other friend says he can make a psiball too...
<GEOvanne> i gave him a link and he couldn?t make oen because of all his doubts. how would you go about dealing with someone like this? DONE
<JediKaren> try him with something simple like a psi ball
<GEOvanne> yeah, he couldn?t make the psiball because of his dounts
<JediKaren> that generally works. or teach him to feel psi by relaxing and letting psi flow through him.
<GEOvanne> he says its something the body naturally does
<JediKaren> well you can't win them all. Some people just can't get over their doubt or are not ready
<Fearn> Does anyone avoid spiritual topics because of the fluff that it creates?
<palimpsest> Why are chakras considered spiritual? I mean aside from the theosophy/hinduism connection that I find rarely expanded on...In psionics I see them being referred to more as or even purely as organs of the psychic energy body, organs don't tell me how to behave to my neighbor, or what happens after I die...
<JediKaren> because it comes from India and is part of a religion with no science backing it up
<shaamansu> When we consider Fluff and get out of patience with those we consider Fluff..we need to stop and remember that at some point in our own development, no matter if years have passed or recently, that some of our thoughts may have become considered Fluffy too.
<Fearn> I agree. It seems that almost all psions were fluffers to begin with
<JediKaren> yes, it is far too easy to get annoyed with them. You need to step back, calm down and then try to set them straight. If you can't, ask me or a mod to handle them
<shaamansu> Chakric energies are not only used in relation to psionics. There are many other belief systems that use them as well. And they are mainly for maintainining the balance of the body's energy by keeping them open. DONE
<idzuna> here is a good suggestion that I?ve seen some groups will use for stopping fluff. before speaking of a topic involving energy work you would ask some one who is known as a decent scanner and is wiling to scan it. this can be done by putting a simple beacon over what needs to be scanned. after the results you would then share what you believed it was or what you were trying to do. of coarse this wouldent apply to all things... as you can s
<Furmen> To answer Fearn's Question. YES! Some of us do stray away from the ever so common "Religious and Spiritual" topics. DONE
<Legend48> ok um I have read about psychic teleportation for a bit
<Legend48> I mean is it possible, I mean the military spent a lot of money to study that
<JediKaren> the military has spent time on some abilities like telepathy, telekinesis and remote viewing
<Anuboern> Oh as for psychic teleportation. It may be possible although it depends on what you call teleportation.
<Legend48> ya but I have read that some people have this ability
<Legend48> I just want to know if this is possible or not, DONE
<shaamansu> On teleportation/ I call it projecting.....it is possible. there does seem to be some confusion here as to how this protends to Psioncs persae. As you know , psionics is not the only belief system out there. There other many others in the pagan community. that deal with this in much the same but different ways with different understandings.
<shaamansu> When you read about all these things either in books or by googling sites, it can become confusing as to which one psionic relates to...Just Saying.....DONE
<JediKaren> let me remind you go to look at what site you are reading this in
<JediKaren> but I will go more into that in a few mins
<palimpsest> Personally, I more avoid combat topics for the fluff potential than spiritual topics. But the military mention reminded me-- are astral wars discussions prohibited because it really is media-inspired fluff...
<palimpsest> or are astral wars real but just inappropriate for the target audience of beginners on this site? DONE
<JediKaren> in my opinion no, but you need to understand that the astral plane is extremely debatable and everyone has a completely different outlook on what is going on in the astral plane
<Anuboern> Also no one has come close to exploring the whole Astral Plane and as such they cannot describe it fully.
<][nvisibleMonk> two things: 1) there have been accounts of teleportation by Tibetan monks, though it's unlikely a real technique could be found on the internet. 2) Prehaps the issue the chat has been having is not isolated to teleportation claims, but revolve around general "ego trips" about whatever abilities a person may have, or may be interested in.
<Merticus> Back to shaamansu's point for a moment. Yes, there are countless other communities, subcultures, pagans, lightworkers, reiki practitioners, psychic vampires, wiccans, spiritualists, and other energetic workers who use psionic techniques but ascribe differing terminologies to these same techniques.
<Merticus> What problems does this cause and how can the different communities come together and realize at least 8/10 times they may be referring to the same thing. Often these techniques are labeled as fluff by virtue of their relationship with pagan, spiritual, or other practices without a close examination of the manipulation techniques employed. Semantics...
<JediKaren> ok no more questions, time for me to hit my last point
<JediKaren> The last point is on sites and being able to tell if the articles/ people/ forum and so on is fluff
<JediKaren> the first thing I do is look at the articles. I pick an article I know well like empathy and I look at what they have to say
<JediKaren> generally if the article is short it is either poorly written and not worth your time, or it may be fluff and you want to look out for what they say

<JediKaren> the first thing I do is look at the articles. I pick an article I know well like empathy and I look at what they have to say
<JediKaren> generally if the article is short it is either poorly written and not worth your time, or it may be fluff and you want to look out for what they say
<JediKaren> if the article is super long or has big font that is another sign that it could be fluff.
<JediKaren> Then look at the content. They claim things with out using facts, common ideas, have poor logic, or use too much of their own personal experiences
<JediKaren> it's hard to tell if an article is fluff or not, so you have to read several of them before you can tell. I suggest comparing the topic of an article to another site's same topic.
<JediKaren> sometimes just one article is fluff and the rest aren't, so don't judge the site with just one article.
<JediKaren> as to the forum, look at the boards. Do they have a million separate kinesis boards? That's a big, easy sign that the forum is fluff. They talk about fluffy topics all the times?
<JediKaren> now you're probably going, "but Karen, your site has all of this and it can't be fluffy, can it?"
<JediKaren> sadly to say, our forum has fluff. I have been trying to fight it, but once you get fluff, it's very hard to kill all of it and for it to stay dead.
<JediKaren> you should also look at the posts being made, even on non fluff topics. If they claim the ability to kill someone and destroy a demon, yeah they are probably fluff bunnies and you should be wary of them.
<JediKaren> But if you see one thread that is fluffy and several people telling the maker of the fluff thread this is fluff, I would bet that the site isn't fluffy and safe to trust.
<JediKaren> sadly every site I know has some fluff. It seems to be part of psionics. It's not a good thing, but in same ways it is. I think it helps us remember what is and isn't reality and does let us grow as a person.
<JediKaren> ok this is the last question round because we will have run out of time. So any questions?
<linkmaste> How do you take care of fluff on the forums? Isn't it controllable if you warn them, and ban them if they continue?
<JediKaren> well the problem with that is if you start banning fluff you start getting roits so you have to warn them and show them why it's fluff. But yes, psiworld is going to get more strict on fluff, even if we have to ban a few
<linkmaste> ok keep it up done
<shaamansu> Sadly, any site/forum whether psionics, pagan or otherwise, will have some form of fluff on it. People that want to draw attention to themselves, make a WOW type statement to be noticed or those that want to start a war and sit back and see what happens
<shaamansu> People are different. Some serious , some not. even with reading/scanning sites, you find that sometimes you miss something...other times you can tell if it is real or not. There is no exact answer.
<GEOvanne> about long articles,
<GEOvanne> my micropk article is long because that?s how I could explain it, and it wrok for someone so that shows that its not fluff
<JediKaren> ok I didn't mean length alone signals fluff. I merely said it could be a sign and should put up your guard, but you should always have your guard on for fluff
<GEOvanne> k
<MBSD> Well, there is fluff everywhere. I know, it's not something that we eradicate completely, but stopping it as much as we can will help much. I think one of the ways we can help prevent fluff, is to wonder if what we say will/can be argued about, and if it sounds outrageously untrue. But I do understand there are some that are true that do sound untrue.
<MBSD> It's hard to determine what is and isn't fluff, but with understanding things, it comes easier.
<palimpsest> Sorry to backtrack but I also think that psychokinesis only can be inconvenient to keep adding a noun to, presuming most of the community would know what pyrokinesis (example) is.
<palimpsest> But since you Jedikaren said you don't consider the common kineses fluff... at what point would you draw the line and say "Not everyone speaks Greek, stop that"?
<palimpsest> so Does "common (acceptable) psionic vocabulary" stickies including the common kineses help make a site less fluffy, or do they signal a fluff site because they open a door to amake-your-own-kinesi s attitude in the psionic community?
<JediKaren> I generally say that tele, pyro, elec, and cryo are not fluff terms
<shaamansu> I have been on my path for years...there are always those that truly believe in some terms that I look at quizically, but those are their beliefs....I have mine. Unless someone presents something out-of-site...as some do...then how can you say...it is untrue.
<shaamansu> It may be untrue to you...in the belief system you follow. If someone is established in a non fluffy belief system...Buddhism, Shamanism or whatever...there system is different from yours.
<shaamansu> Your system is psionics and that is what you believe...but there is always room for growth even if you don't agree.....DONE

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